DEI Strategies For 2025

(0:00) I know you have a good one, you try, I don’t believe a thing, I know you lie, all night long. (0:09) But you mean that change, I’m saying the same, had me losing my mind. (0:17) You said the city was mine.

(0:20) I ain’t never been the same. (0:22) I ain’t never been the one. (0:24) I ain’t never been the one.

(0:27) I don’t know what you want, just I wanna be there. (0:30) Some day a million dollar baby. (0:33) I ain’t never been the same.

(0:36) I ain’t never been the one. (0:40) I don’t know what you want, just I wanna be there. (0:44) Some day a million dollar baby.

(0:47) Hey! (0:48) That’s Christy Lucas. (0:50) I can see you dancing. (0:52) Welcome, everyone.

(0:53) listen, this is going to be the latest conference ever. People Leader 2024. Okay.

Thank you (0:59) all. What an incredible day. I’ve been at every session, taking notes, learning, and (1:05) now I am so excited.

If you are in the chat, listen, you just, I don’t even know if you’re (1:10) going to handle the power that we’re about to embark on right now with these phenomenal, (1:16) phenomenal thought leaders in this space. So let’s just get started. Thank you.

Please (1:20) be in the chat. We want to hear what you have to say. Go to the question and answer tab (1:25) if you want your question to be displayed on the screen.

So make sure. Well, let’s get (1:29) started because I have a dynamic panel. I’m going to let each one of our panelists tell (1:32) us a little bit about themselves.

We’ll start with April, go to Brenda and let Rachel round (1:37) us out. So April, tell us a little bit about you and your passion for this DE&I space. (1:41) Oh, thank you, Leesa.

And I’m so honored to be here. I’m trying to stop moving underneath (1:46) the table. I am April Allen and I am a consultant and a principal founder of Allen & Unger Consulting.

(2:01) And what we do is we do DE&I work. We do strategies. We do conflict intervention and equity interventions.

(2:08) We do coaching. We do training. We do all the things in the DE&I space.

And I do that (2:15) with my lovely partner, Shauna Unger. And I’ve been in this space for years, for the (2:22) majority of my career. I come out of Silicon Valley.

I’m currently in the Pacific Northwest. (2:28) And I love what I do. And I’ll stop there.

I tell you, it was exuding. It was exuding. (2:33) So thank you so much, April.

Turn it over to Brenda. (2:38) Yes. Good afternoon, everyone.

My name is Brenda Clegg. I am the Equity Community Engagement (2:44) and EEO officer in Chatham County, North Carolina. I have been doing this work for over 13 years (2:55) when DE&I was not the name.

And I am passionate about it. I believe that it’s something that has (3:04) to be continuous. I’m also a certified diversity executive and a member of the Society for Human (3:11) Resource Management.

Love that. I love you said certified. (3:16) That’s great.

Thank you, Brenda, for sharing and being here. And then we will turn it over (3:20) to the lovely Rachel Williams. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

(3:24) Thanks, Leesa Askew. Excited to be here. Excited to be here, everyone.

Good afternoon. I’m Rachel (3:32) Williams. I am the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer for The Motley Fool, a financial advice (3:37) company.

Previously, I’ve been an inaugural head of DEI at companies like Google, Yelp and StubHub. (3:49) Amazing. As you can see, we are here to give you some epic, epic strategies for DE&I for 2025.

(3:57) But before we go into strategy, let’s just talk about how did we get here in the first place? (4:02) I don’t know, April, if you want to tackle first for us, like, you know, there’s a lot of (4:07) reversity. There’s been a lot of backlash over the last couple of years. How did we even get here? (4:14) Why is DE&I even up for conversation, right? Because most of us feel like it should be table (4:20) stakes, right? There should be no question.

No, that’s a good question. And you’re right. (4:25) Like, why are we even having so much? Let’s just call it what it is about backlash against DEI.

(4:30) You have folks that are nervous. What can I do? What can I not do? And I know, (4:33) you know, I’m a lawyer by trade. And so I often get the legal issues that we may get into a little (4:39) bit later.

But we’ve gotten here in some ways, if I’m being frank, that some of our efforts (4:47) have not always been ones that have been allowed for inclusivity, true inclusivity, as far as, (4:56) hey, what is this going to look like for everyone in the organization? Now, (4:59) we can talk about the social backlash and we have, you know, the political backlash with folks (5:04) who are just want to be mad about something. Really, some folks have just much to do about (5:08) nothing. We could talk about the financial backlash where folks are like, well, where (5:12) can we start pulling money? And we can talk about, again, the legal backlash and what is, (5:18) how does this apply or does this even apply to organizations outside of the education round? (5:23) But a lot of, you know, there is some fair criticism around DEI, I believe.

This is my (5:28) opinion. I won’t speak for the panelists around how do we do this in a way that brings everyone (5:33) along on the journey where folks, you know, to the point, exclusion is not inclusion. (5:39) And how do we get as much, as many champions, excuse me, around the organization as possible (5:45) understanding the business case behind DEI? As you just said, it seems like it’d be obvious, but (5:50) there is a real business case around DEI.

You’re more productive. You grow more market shares. (5:57) All the things that we can talk about here, and I’m sure we’ll get into, (6:00) but I think that is one of the challenges of how we’ve gotten here.

(6:05) Thank you so much, April. Powerful words. And I’m going to flip to Brenda and tell us a little bit (6:10) about, from your lens, how we got here.

I know you have, just for full disclosure, everyone, (6:14) Brenda and I are on the East Coast of the country, more in the Southeast. Brenda’s in North Carolina, (6:20) I’m in Florida. And I will say, I felt like on our side of the country, we were not as progressive (6:28) as the side where April and Rachel are residing on our West Coast.

But I think just talking to you (6:34) all, it’s all the same. So Brenda, tell us from your lens, how do you feel like we got here? (6:39) So I definitely agree with you, Leesa. Our side of the country, at least on the Southeast, (6:44) is not quite as progressive as the West Coast.

However, we are doing good things. (6:52) I think that DEI has become a scapegoat. We left a loophole, when I say we, those of us that are (7:01) educators, that are strategists for this work, we’ve left a loophole open for people to (7:09) misinterpret.

So in my viewpoint, this is a great time for us to now sort of recalibrate (7:17) DEI and start to really take the time to have those courageous civil conversations about what (7:26) it really means, and to take the time to explain what each word truly means, given real life (7:34) examples, so that people can get a better understanding. And knowing that it’s inclusive (7:42) of everyone. Our intention is not to exclude anyone.

It’s not inclusive if we leave anyone (7:49) out. So that’s one thing that we want to make sure that we say, while we are focusing on making (7:57) sure that everyone understands, that not everyone starts from the same point. And that some people (8:03) need a little bit extra of something, okay, but it doesn’t mean we necessarily have to take it (8:09) from someone else for them to get it.

And that’s been one of those loopholes. (8:14) Brenda, when you said that, with such conviction, I was looking for my loophole to fill it in, (8:18) because I have that accountability. And that is definitely, it starts with you.

Are you doing (8:25) everything you say you’re going to do, the loophole? So wow, wow, powerful, powerful, (8:29) that recalibration. And real quick, I just want to acknowledge Sophia’s comment. She said, (8:34) thank you for starting with the backlash.

We weren’t playing with you all today in the chat, (8:37) as we said. She said she believes that it’s an essential part of business. DEI also must shift (8:46) and transform.

And that is what is happening right now. So thank you, Sophia, for that. And (8:50) please continue with the chat.

And Rachel, tell us, look, look, my notepad is already on fire. (8:56) What you got for us? Well, nothing different than my fellow panelists. I mean, I agree with April (9:02) and Brenda that this is an opportunity for us to look at the ecosystem of this work in its totality (9:08) and to evaluate where we may have made some misses in the last decade or so.

(9:14) Since you brought up the East Coast, West Coast beef, you know, the biggie in two parts, (9:19) I’m going to lean, I’m going to lean in there. And I’m going to say being born and raised in (9:25) Silicon Valley and working for Silicon Valley tech companies, you know, Reverend Jesse Jackson (9:30) started this work over a decade ago. He I thank him all the time because he is the one that made (9:35) the call to action by showing up to Google shareholder meetings and challenging them (9:39) around their diversity numbers.

The challenge, I always tell him, with that call to action is that (9:47) it wasn’t complete in its ask. Right. And now we are we are seeing what happens when you don’t (9:53) make a complete ask and have a complete strategy.

His strategy or his ask was around diversity and (9:58) representation only. Right. Wasn’t around the pieces around equity.

It wasn’t around the pieces (10:03) of inclusion. And so now we are seeing where we missed and all of us here, I know, want to get (10:09) this work right. And so the next year or so should be us reframing the work and recalibrating.

(10:15) Oh, I love it. Recalibration, reframing, loopholes. Yes.

All for it. And the chat’s all for it, too. (10:24) And speaking of which, you know, with that cultural backlash, you know, the pendulum swung (10:28) so far.

Right. For some individuals, I love that all of you said we don’t want anyone to feel (10:34) excluded. Inclusion is not about exclusion.

Every single person needs to feel included. Right. (10:40) So because it’s swung so far for underrepresented groups and then people who started feeling (10:46) really excluded, how do you create an environment that you can justify investment in DEI with all (10:53) this corporate austerity and people feeling like they’re excluded when it comes to DEI efforts? (10:59) Let’s start with you, Rachel.

Brenda, let you weigh in and then we’ll let you round us out, April. (11:05) Well, I think I think number one is we need to understand that everybody has a role to play. (11:09) And I think, April, you alluded to that.

It is not just on the folks who are underrepresented. (11:14) It is not just the work of women. It is not just the work of the DEI leader, which is why usually (11:19) I try to keep my team kind of smallsies because I want I don’t want anyone to think that the DEI (11:26) team can handle it all.

I want everyone to figure out within their particular position in the (11:32) company. How is it that you can contribute to the strategy that I have brought forward? Right. (11:37) And so I’ll give you an example.

When I was at Google, I was working at Google X, which is the (11:43) innovation lab to Alphabet. So, you know, those driverless cars that people are wild for came out (11:48) of that organization. Yeah, I know.

And I was meeting with the legal team. I do my round with (11:58) all of the teams and all the departments and kind of encouraging and inspiring them to think of (12:02) their own strategies for their team. And the legal team came back to me.

Their idea was, (12:08) hey, we file patents here. We know historically patents have excluded certain people, certain (12:14) groups, certain communities from even being able to file or have their names added to them. (12:19) So we want to do our part when we’re filing patents for these new technologies that we are including (12:26) every underrepresented person who is on the team, every woman that is on the team so that their (12:30) names can be added to a patent.

Now, that’s real impact. I personally would not have come up with. (12:38) Right.

But it was my encouragement, my vision, my like empowering them and making an offering, (12:45) right, an offering for them to join me in this work that they came up with that brilliant idea. (12:49) So that is my takeaway for everybody. And as you’re doing this work is to think about where (12:55) you are in the organization, what you do have control and power over, how you can turn that (13:00) into some action for DEI.

Love that Rachel, love that so much. And especially with the patent, (13:08) right? Just a little tease and that’s forever. So yes, right.

Brenda, help us weigh in on what you (13:15) think, how that investment can happen, how you can make that basis for the investment for more (13:22) DEI, especially with the environment we’re in right now. Sure. Well, one of the things we have to (13:27) understand is, you know, everyone has to be included.

So what do you do? You have to let (13:34) everyone know, very similar to what Rachel said, right? We can drive the train with the conductors, (13:41) but we’re not actually moving it, OK? The work has to be done by every employee. So we have to give (13:49) them ownership of that. That means that we have to let them know that you have a role and that (13:56) every day you have to come to work with the intentionality to do the work, to include someone, (14:04) to ask someone, to be an ally, OK? And that we want everyone’s opinion, that no one should feel (14:13) left out.

So it’s something that we do, that we do intentionally. And we have the conversations, (14:20) you know, we use, you know, the Emtrain platform, for instance. We use that on a regular basis to (14:26) make sure we’re not just checking the box, but we’re actually having those conversations (14:31) monthly.

It’ll stimulate something so that you will react or do something a little different. (14:37) So for us, the business case is seeing the different departments, the employees working together, (14:46) you know, engaging, collaborating even the more, and letting them know this is in your hand. So (14:53) you want an ERG? What ERG do you want? And let’s do it.

But I’m not going to be running the boat, (15:02) right, or manning it. You have to take charge and take ownership of it. (15:07) I love that, Brenda.

That’s so true. And everyone is, Janine Yancy, our founder, (15:13) she says this all the time on our town halls. We all need to be rowing in the same direction, (15:17) right? And I love that.

Everyone’s in the boat, so you’re not just sitting there and your oar (15:23) is resting. Get out and let’s row together. Or rowing in the wrong direction.

(15:29) Okay, we’re going forward and you’re going backward. You’re going lateral and we’re (15:34) trying to go horizontal. Like some dance moves, right? You all over the place.

(15:41) April, round us out on this. What are your thoughts about how to make the business case (15:47) and just make it more relevant again? Yeah, no, I love what my panelists said, (15:54) my fellow panelists, Rachel and Brenda, and they both are right. And I love that example with the (15:59) patents, Rachel, and just, you know, making sure that you remove that barrier or progress folks (16:05) and within the organization.

I feel the same way. You know, one thing that, you know, I was (16:09) just coaching a group of white leaders, very white male cisgender leaders yesterday over the last (16:16) two days. And one thing that was helpful for them to see was the business case again, right? Because (16:23) some folks thought, hey, the initial business case around D&I was just kind of, let’s just (16:28) call a spade a spade, kind of this NPR, liberal progressive.

Here we go. Here we go down. What’s (16:34) the shiny carrot this time that we’re playing with? And telling them, look, no, these numbers (16:40) were re-ran again in 2023 and even 2024 by Deloitte, by Boston, by McKinsey, these consulting (16:47) houses.

And it’s showing, no, this is true. Now, no matter how you feel about it, right? I tell (16:54) them the work may be politicized, but it’s not political, right? And saying, hey, this is actually (17:02) a strategic advantage. Look, if you want to sustain, retain, and to grow and innovate, (17:11) you are going to have to buy into the work of DEI.

Now, it may look different to you. It may, (17:18) the term, you may not love the terminology because of where you’re located in the United States. (17:24) However, this is really about being an employer of choice because employees say this is one of (17:31) the top three things they look at.

So if you want the best employees, you are going to have (17:37) to consider DEI. Even, I just saw a study that 25% decide if they’re going to go for a promotional (17:45) rate, a promotion within their organization, sorry, 25% of folks buy if there’s a DEI program (17:53) that’s functioning within the organization. So, you know, also putting on my lawyer hat, (17:59) EEOC claims are up by one third.

Like, okay, so you’re just going to lose money. At least the (18:05) average claim, the average claim, we’re not even talking about the big ones are about $10,000. (18:10) So you’re like, yeah, you’re like, let me sip my tea.

It is going to literally can sink an (18:16) organization and take away from that if it’s a small organization. If it’s a larger one, it’s (18:22) taking away resource and profit. And so you’re going, okay, let’s just be smart about this.

(18:29) Let’s get out of our heads and the terminologies and who said what and who you’re voting for. (18:37) The reality is the world is full of difference. And that’s something that my business partner, (18:42) I always tell folks, that’s what we told them yesterday, the world is different.

(18:46) So, you know, and sometimes that helps with, you know, when I’m in, look, I’m in the Pacific (18:50) Northwest. So it’s progressive and it’s white. Okay.

And so you go, okay, let me help you. (18:58) John and Andy, y’all are not the same just because you’re both white men. (19:02) You came from a rural experience.

You came from a city experience. You came from, you know, (19:08) it’s so having them really understand sometimes just saying the word different kind of postures (19:13) the conversation a little bit differently. And that’s not shying away from the words of diversity, (19:19) equity, inclusion, which I think are really important, but starting to peel back the layer (19:23) of what we’re saying is folks are different.

And now you have five different generations (19:27) in the workforce. So unless you think this is all about race and gender, (19:31) it’s actually about helping people get along within a workforce so you can be productive (19:37) and actually get your product or your service out to the most people and get the most market share. (19:42) Right.

So if you, if you, if you crouch it in those terms, and let’s just, you know, we are (19:48) in a capitalistic society. It does tend to move the ball forward or continue moving the ball. (19:57) Listen, you saw me sipping my tea.

Absolutely. You really brought the knowledge. And I also (20:02) wanted to bring out, cause I love what you said.

And thank you, Katrina. She said, (20:05) you know, DEI is not just race, not just gender, but DEI is also what you can’t see. (20:10) Yeah.

Neurodivergent individuals will take over the workforce. I know many of you have (20:16) young children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, godkids, anyone in your community, (20:21) generation alpha, over 40% are, are taught to become neurodivergent. So when you talk about (20:28) having psychologically safe spaces where people feel seen and heard and you’re, you understand (20:33) how you process, right? How everything is different.

It is so important to have that space. (20:39) I’m also want to call out Reggie. Thank you.

He said, ownership is so important to drive results, (20:44) influencing culture and accountability. And Nicola, thank you. She asked about what (20:50) environment can measure effectiveness that we’re going to talk about in our, in our solutions.

(20:54) And then we also have Sophia says that we’ve been talking about culture or patterns as behavior (20:59) and reframing from the standards of race, food, religion. We need to understand how to maneuver (21:05) patterns in a productive way. Thank you so much, Chad.

All these nuggets that you’re putting in (21:10) But let’s get back to just some of the terminology around. Is that the problem? Do we just need to (21:17) say we’re all different? This is what it is, or what are your thoughts about that? I’m going to (21:22) come back over to you, Rachel. What are you thinking about terminology? Do we just need (21:27) to change the definition of tomato versus tomato? Or is that the song? I see you trying to get me (21:32) riled up because you know, about words, (21:54) talking to a gen Xer who had to look up things in an encyclopedia and Webster’s dictionary.

(22:03) I’m going to stray from believing that words matter and the definition of words matter. (22:09) And I get it. Like I I’m exhausted by having to use all these words or even the addition of new (22:16) terms.

When I started, it was just the D then it was D and I, and then it was D I B. And I’m like, (22:21) what is this B? Then it was D I B J. Okay, now we then it was D E I A J. Like, okay, (22:28) I get it. We’re all exhausted about that. Words are extremely important.

So really quickly, (22:34) diversity is the representation of your workforce, the human beings that work in your company. What (22:41) is their representation? But it’s not just that. It is not just about the hiring.

It is also about (22:45) what is the reputation of your manager workforce, your leadership team, and your board? And how are (22:50) we moving those people up and through your entire company? So that is the entire employee life cycle. (22:56) Then we got inclusion. And inclusion, as we’ve been spending a lot of time here, (23:00) is all about leveraging that diversity.

And I like to use the word leveraging because just, (23:07) I think it was Verna Myers from over at Netflix who said, you know, diversity is the party and (23:13) being invited isn’t to the dance. Okay, I messed it up, but you all get it. And just being invited (23:23) isn’t enough.

You have to actually leverage and tap into the brilliance of the diversity that (23:28) is expressed in your organization. Otherwise you won’t be able to innovate. So I always want to (23:33) talk about leveraging that diversity.

So that’s the inclusion. My favorite one on the D E I space (23:40) is equity. And equity is when you are systemically trying to change some of the policies, (23:46) the practices, the programs that exist in your company that actually make people behave a (23:53) certain way.

And I think when you change the policies and when you change your programs (23:59) and some of your practices, those are the guardrails by which people then start to behave. (24:05) And to me, that’s the lasting legacy I want to leave. As you mentioned about motherhood, (24:11) I’m not a mother.

I’m an auntie on my best day, hoping to be a bonus grandma or something at some (24:16) point, but my legacy is through my work and I want to leave companies better than I found it. (24:22) And the best way to do that is to look at some of the practices through equity, making sure that (24:27) your policies are serving all of your employees, which means you need to look at all of your data, (24:35) whether it’s through the Emtrain platform, culture and trap for whatever platforms you are (24:40) using to gauge engagement in your organization. You need to use that, slice that data by (24:48) several versions of demographics, not just race, not just gender, but generational and any other (24:55) type that you can get to see where you are missing the mark on some of your policies and (25:00) your practices for your employee base, and then get about the business of fixing it.

That’s the (25:04) quiet work that I think we all should be doing right now. Yes. Yes.

Okay. (25:18) On that, and Brenda and Ava, I’ll let you all weigh in too about, again, (25:22) is it just a matter of the semantics because people don’t like the word or whatnot? So (25:27) tell us what you think, Brenda, and then chat. I’m going to make sure I acknowledge everything (25:32) and we will have some solutions for you.

We appreciate all of your activity. Thank (25:36) you for sharing and being a part of this conversation. So I am not a fan of smokescreens.

(25:42) Okay. I’m not, I’m just put that out there. I’m not a fan of that.

So I believe we do the work (25:51) and do it civilly, right? Civilly. Do it respectfully, but do the work and don’t be shy (26:01) about the fact that the work needs to be done. Everyone wants to know the business case, (26:08) what’s in it for me, the with them, right? So you have to explain the with them.

If we do the work (26:17) and we’re not explaining what’s in it for them, then no one has a buy-in. Everyone’s afraid of (26:25) change and change is constant. It’s the only constant thing, right? It’s change, right? (26:31) So when we talk about diversity, we have to talk about, you know, draw the picture, (26:36) draw the big picture of the beautiful quilt, okay? And the fact that when you make a quilt, (26:42) when a quilt is made, it’s not made from one piece of fabric.

It’s made from many, (26:49) many different pieces, different colors, different patterns. And think of our people, (26:56) our employees as those different pieces coming together, woven together to be stronger (27:04) and warm, to actually have a purpose. So I draw the picture because so many times we (27:12) leave that little opening and we don’t do that.

So we have to be straight, I believe, (27:17) and we have to be straightforward. Inclusion, I think Rachel, you know, she said what inclusion (27:24) is. And the only thing that I would add to that is that we’re not, not only are we asking you to the (27:32) dance and we’re asking you, do you need anything to get to the dance? Do you need a ride to the (27:41) dance? Okay.

And then once you’re there, you know, do you need a ride home or what kind of music do (27:51) you like? I’m including you. I want to make sure that not only have I invited you, but I’m (27:57) taking into consideration the things that would make you feel most comfortable and to help you (28:05) be your authentic self. And we want everyone to have a chance to dance to their own music, (28:09) you know.

But we want to make sure that we don’t forget that portion. (28:17) And equity is definitely my favorite too. And I don’t believe that equity should ever be removed (28:23) from the word or from the phrasing.

Okay. We just need to take the time to explain it. (28:30) And we need to, as I said earlier, recalibrate, just take a stand back and explain it in a way (28:41) that people will understand why equity is so important.

And then measure it and have the (28:47) measurements, you know, whatever you’re using. If you don’t have your KPIs, if you don’t know (28:55) what you’re, how, you know, where you’re starting from and what you’re going to measure, (29:00) then how do you know what you’re doing? How do you know that you’re even (29:03) making a difference? So we have to be able to measure what we’re doing. (29:10) Okay.

You’re muted, Leesa. You’re muted, Leesa. You’re still muted.

(29:24) You are muted. It’s okay. I know I’m supposed to go, because you said right when I should go.

(29:34) So I will, because I know I’m supposed to go. So I will just, I will go. No, I, you know, what my, (29:41) what my esteemed colleagues on the floor said, you know, they have said, I agree with everything (29:47) they said.

I, you know, and Rachel, you were giving me the woo-woos. I wanted to get teary (29:52) eye about auntie and leaving legacy and within an organization and in the workforce. And, (29:59) and Brenda, you are, you are really the auntie right now.

Cause you said, well, (30:03) we’re not going to do is hide the word. Okay. So I’m like, all right, no.

And I, and I am with (30:12) both of my panelists. I agree. I mean, explaining the word, taking the time to explain it.

(30:19) Case in point yesterday, I was with the group. They were like, well, I don’t really, you know, (30:23) trying to understand equity better. And I’m like, let’s think about it as fairness.

We talked about (30:28) the GI bill, right? Well, we want to just treat everybody equally. Why don’t we just do equality? (30:33) Okay. Well, that was the first measure by the government to really say, you know what we’re (30:38) going to have, we’re going to pay black folk or folks of color serving in the, in our, (30:45) in our forces and white GI is the same.

Now we know the story of the GI bill came along. (30:51) The problem is they couldn’t use it equally, right? That’s where equity had to come in place. (30:55) You’ve given them the same amount, $5,000 or whatnot, and say, go, go to a college, (31:00) go to a university, um, and, and educate yourself or go get a house.

Well, you’re not able to do (31:06) that when folks are, have a restricted covenants and within their visa say, I’m not running to a (31:13) black person or a Negro, as they would say back then, or you have colleges that say, especially (31:18) a lot of those men, um, in the armed forces came from the South, the black men and said, Hey, (31:24) I’m not going to, uh, let you into our college. We, we don’t, we, we have a race based preference (31:31) for white folk. And so you can’t come into the college.

And so that is what the problem is when (31:36) I’m trying to explain, um, the difference between, well, when I get the folks say, why can’t we just (31:41) treat everyone equal? And why, and why is equity in there? Because that is what equity looked like (31:46) making, making sure that things are fair. Even when something, when there is someone’s qualified (31:52) to do the work, that was another discussion we had. I said, I don’t know where this misnomer, (31:56) this fallacy around folks are not qualified.

We’re saying, no, if they are qualified, (32:01) why are you making the work harder to do when you can do something to remove a barrier? (32:06) That is the, that is the discussion. Yes. We also talk about the ADA and American Disability Act, (32:13) right? We, in the eighties, folks could not benefit from, from sidewalks and curves.

Now (32:22) they can. Why? Because we were there to address the problem because there was legislation push (32:27) so that veterans mainly could go to work to buy a house because there weren’t elevators. There (32:35) weren’t escalators.

There weren’t of ADA friendly accommodations. Were they not qualified to do (32:41) the work? Yes, they were qualified. However, to Brenda’s point, I need, how am I going to get to (32:47) work? Right? How do I get to work? Are we making sure that I can get to work safely and my wheelchair (32:52) can fit into the elevator? Or there’s a place that I can, you know, roll up a ramp versus trying to, (32:59) trying to get upstairs.

And so when you, when you start explaining these examples to folks, like, (33:04) Hey, this is really what equity is. It’s about fairness. It’s not about unfairness is really (33:10) at its basics.

It has been, it’s helpful and it’s important. Now I would say when Rachel and I were (33:17) talking before, I had made a comment and I, and I’m already a fan of Rachel, but she made a comment (33:24) around, well, we’re going to keep these words because all of us have been on the Dewey Decimal (33:27) system in this group, right? We go to Webster’s and it’s a non-troubled school. You can write (33:34) that word 200 times and come back and turn it into the teacher.

I was a little bit of a rebel, (33:39) you know, but I was, so I know about Webster’s and all that. I think what I have seen as a (33:47) organization, one automotive, automotive space, engineering automotive space, one in healthcare (33:53) and what I, what sometimes was my challenge. I never want to take the words DEI out.

I don’t (33:59) know how Sherm, Sherm’s Society of Human Resources even made that suggestion or made that mandate. (34:07) We’re going to just go DNI, yes, if you’re T because you really can’t have inclusion (34:11) without equity. It doesn’t make sense to me.

You know, that’s, that’s my (34:17) position on that. But my, my point with saying all that is sometimes you get into (34:26) situations as a DEI practitioner, especially when you’re in the Pacific Northwest. (34:33) Folks want to police every word that’s being said.

Now you may not have this problem in the (34:39) Southeast as much as we do. I mean, they have read every book, watched every, listened to every (34:45) podcast, and then they want to be the teacher. So if you say one wrong word, let me correct you (34:51) in front of folks.

Well, how do, nobody wants to hear that. So I have seen that play out over (34:56) and over with white guys, white cisgender guys trying to lean in and say, let me, okay. And (35:02) they’re like, nope, that’s not the right word.

You said it wrong. You should be saying, and they’re (35:05) like, okay, I’m never talking again. So sometimes I find myself as somebody who also is a professor (35:12) as an adjunct professor, I’m like, wait a minute, this is not an academic exercise.

(35:17) This impacts real people’s lives. And so we’re not here to play the word policing game at every (35:24) junction and every term. What we want to do is make sure people understand the tangibility and (35:30) the reality of how this can impact you as a business and impact the people that are in your (35:36) organization.

They can go from thriving to thriving. If we, if you have a heart for the (35:42) work and understand the business acumen for the work as well. So that’s sometimes my only, (35:48) cause sometimes I’m like, I’m so exhausted by y’all trying to correct everybody’s language.

(35:51) We can’t get anything done. Cause y’all worried that they say the latest word. Well, I can’t (35:56) keep up with all the terms and I have devoted my life to this work for about 20 years now.

So (36:02) I’m like, there has to be grace is my point. There’s a term that my business partner, I use, (36:07) we call it grace space, safe space. I am inviting leaders into to say the thing that they’re (36:13) thinking that they know is not safe to say outside in this, this canceled culture we live in.

Right. (36:20) Listen, the chat is just loving this conversation. We have, we’re coming up on our time.

So what I (36:27) want to do, I have two questions in the chat. I’m gonna display them. If one of you want to (36:31) answer this first question, it says I’ve seen a trend of merging DE&I with ESG roles as a single (36:37) DE&I leader in a 3000 plus organization.

I can’t even imagine having to take that role. I’m curious (36:44) if you all think companies creating these hybrid roles are a red flag to avoid. Wow.

I’m going to (36:50) sip my tea on this one too. Someone wants to answer that. And then we have another question (36:54) that will lead us to our solution.

So, you know, thank you all. Who wants to tackle this question? (37:01) Um, I’ll take it since I’m internal, um, and a corporation. I look, things have been added to (37:08) this role for the last two decades.

Um, first starting with recruiting and then they, they (37:15) added, okay, you’re a part of, um, uh, kind of our, our employee retention, not just hiring, (37:21) but how do we keep them? Okay. So then, and then they decided to add, um, you know, (37:26) with all of the social crises, you need to help us with our comms and communication. (37:31) Um, okay.

These companies are innovating, they’re developing new products, things like AI, um, and (37:36) tracking faces. Well, we definitely need DE&I’s voice in that because, uh, the engineers are (37:41) missing some things because they, right. So, so it’s been expanded from, you know, (37:46) the beginning to the end, really.

So if you want to take on ESG and you can do it, here’s what I (37:53) think though, that you will need as a DE&I leader, anybody doing this work. And this is from my (37:57) friend, Arthur Chan. Look up Arthur Chan on LinkedIn.

You need authority, first of all. So (38:04) you need to make sure that you have the authority to do ESG, DE&I, and all of the work. Otherwise, (38:10) and you can have that discussion.

You need the power to make some decisions on DE&I, ESG, and (38:17) whole alphabet. Uh, you will need resources. So if they’re adding three more letters to the acronym, (38:24) that is your title, then you’re going to need three times the resources.

So if they’re willing (38:29) to do that, then great. And then you will need some protection because this work is risky and (38:35) dangerous and, um, challenging. And so you need your leaders to understand that things are going (38:41) to be a challenge and at times you will need their protection, their support, and their sponsorship.

(38:46) So if you have those four things, I say take it on all alone, baby. Then, you know, hire, (38:51) hire the rest of your team out to handle the ESG and to handle the DE&I and to do all the things. And (38:56) you set the strategy, the tone, and the vision.

That’s my suggestion. I’m here for it. But powerful.

(39:02) Get those four things. Those four things. There you all have it.

And the chat is loving it. Everyone (39:07) was agreeing that it’s exhausting. Um, and, and, and definitely gave some great advice.

And this is a great (39:13) segue, um, Mai-Mai Liu for putting this out there to get past the noise. What are your organizations (39:18) focused on for 2025 to move things along? So we’re not just talking about how others are talking (39:24) DE&I. This is powerful because we’re going to go into our solutions.

I know some things that we (39:29) discussed prior was just doing the quiet work. I know Rachel talked about that. Data-driven (39:35) decision-making, which Emtrain is happy to help any of you with your cultural skills.

We can get (39:39) into that. Inclusive leadership training, reframing DE&I, and building DE&I to everyday (39:44) practices. So I want to do a round-robin.

I’ll start with you, April, Brenda, and then Rachel. (39:49) Just what are your, what are the strategies? Let’s get to the meat and potatoes of this conversation. (39:55) Um, we’ll start with you, April.

Okay. Yeah. No, I, I was pausing for a moment and thinking because (40:00) you just said a lot, right? I’m, I, Brenda, you measure what matters, right? So first of all, (40:06) the KPIs and metrics, I want to make sure that there is a comprehensive strategy touching (40:10) all parts of the organization.

So I want to, whether that’s consumer engagement and whether (40:16) that is client experience, whether that is, you know, IT, every part of the organization, (40:22) because everyone can benefit from DE&I. And as we all stated here, and I like what Rachel said, (40:27) I keep my team small because a lot of times you hear people like, I, I don’t have enough people. (40:32) And she’s like, wait, first of all, none of us have had enough people to be honest, but it’s like, (40:38) but she also is now able to give ownership to the folks that need to take ownership.

Right. (40:44) So for me, that’s important. Something else that we’re seeing a lot is, you know, we’re getting (40:48) caught, we’re getting called in for a lot of equity conflict work, meaning interventions within (40:55) organizations with, and you know, what’s been surprising.

It hasn’t just been with, you know, (41:00) you may think MAGA versus Kamala, right? Like this kind of, you know, red blue camp, you know, (41:07) it’s not. What we’ve been getting called in is from DEI teams, ERGs, committees, DEI councils (41:14) and committees who are very entrenched in, this is how the work has to be done or not able to get (41:22) along. It’s also that scarcity mindset.

So I really like to, you know, advise organizations around (41:30) making sure that the groups that are supposed to be helping folks like Rachel and Brenda (41:37) are actually understanding their role and their contributions and making that very clear for them. (41:44) So they don’t get going off into the yonder and it’s not a chaos ball. That is, you know, (41:50) I found that to be one of the most distracting things.

And they’re like, I’m here for DEI, (41:54) but they’re not understanding business imperative and strategy. So making sure that that is very, (41:59) very clear so that you are moving together and in sync and what does that look like and what can (42:06) they own and what can they own and really help champion throughout the organization as well. (42:13) And making sure that these people have, folks have in your organization, the muscle for conflict.

(42:20) Because one thing we say is when you put folks that are different within a situation, (42:26) ultimately, you’re going to be better off. It’s worth it. However, you’re going to have conflict.

(42:32) That is the reality. I have been married for almost 20 years. I know I look like I’m 15.

(42:40) That means I got a good hook. But like I haven’t, you know, but we have conflict. Why? Because (42:49) we’re having real discussions and we are different.

And so, but what, and we have to be able to frame (42:55) those conversations or reframe them as this is good to not always agree. This is good to have (43:01) the difference of opinions at the table and make us pause and think and not just be so efficiency. (43:06) And, and we got to all play nice and get along.

Now, obviously you need to not be there to be (43:11) just disruptive, but actually welcoming that. And so that’s something that we, we take very (43:16) serious. And what I do is we go in and coach teams around.

Now we’re going to actually build a muscle (43:20) for disagreement and welcome that in. So you do have folks coming into the coming and not just (43:27) getting a chair and saying, Oh, make a seat at the table, but actually included it at the table (43:34) and not just sitting there. Right.

We got Thanksgiving coming up. Like if I bring (43:38) collard greens, I want you to eat my greens. I don’t want you to just be like, Oh, they’re over (43:42) on the table.

Nobody touched them. Like, I want you also to eat my food too and value what I’m (43:48) bringing to the table. So I, you know, those are, there’s a couple of things I would think (43:52) that organizations really are going to have to think about and that we’ve seen.

And again, (43:56) leadership competency, I think Emtrain does a wonderful job. When I was within my last (44:02) organization leading DEI efforts, I used Emtrain and that was so helpful because you’re embedding (44:08) these leadership competencies. Folks are seeing the real time with the data analytics, like, Oh, (44:14) yeah.

Okay. I think I’m good here, but I’m not because I’m not actually, (44:19) I’m actually not making the right decision. All right.

The one that’s not full of bias or full (44:24) of my, you know, of, of just my own lack of empathy because of my, you know, my rush decision. (44:29) And so I really, really strongly, you know, I love that also is great for interventions when you can (44:36) see a manager in there and you’re like, well, why can’t, why to the talking about metrics? Well, (44:44) why is there so much turnover among black and brown people? Or why is there so much turnover (44:48) among women on this team? Or why then you go in and you have those, you see that it’s like (44:54) segmented down from Emtrain and you go, okay, now we know either for any, that you’re going to have (44:59) to get some more skilled leadership competency skill sets, or we may need to just move you to (45:03) another place or move you out of the organization. If there’s something overtly there that is, (45:08) you know, egregious.

So that is, those are my thoughts around that. (45:12) No, thank you so much, April. And I know we’re coming at the top of our hour.

So Brenda, (45:16) and, and you use Emtrain. I know that you all, all of you have, tell us a little bit about what (45:22) you think are practical solutions that people can get involved with right now for their 2025 DEI (45:29) strategies. We’ll get your way.

And Rachel, then we have one last question. And we’re going to wrap (45:33) this up. This has been so much fun.

So Brenda, I’ll let you go. I’ll make it really quick. I think (45:38) that it’s important for us to stay on course.

Okay. So we’re continually to look at our policies, (45:45) our procedures, but more importantly, we, because we have to embed it in every aspect (45:51) of the county work that we do. Okay.

From every employee to our clients, our customers, (45:58) the community that we’re serving. But in order to also make sure that we’re thinking about it (46:03) and doing it intentionally, we’re using the platform. We’ll continue to do that on a monthly (46:10) basis, rolling out assignments to everyone.

So it’s a continual conversation. And then we’re also (46:18) asking departments to lead up your own courageous conversations and have those (46:24) courageous conversations. And to understand the conflict, it’s good as long as it’s respectful (46:31) and productive.

Okay. And then knowing when sometimes you just have to stop and say, we have (46:37) to stop and agree to disagree. But continually, our look at 2025 is to keep going, to continue doing (46:47) the education on a regular basis.

We’re not doing it on an annual, it’s a monthly conversation, (46:56) a monthly pattern of thinking about this, because you have to come to work a hundred percent of the (47:01) time, intentionally thinking about being inclusive, being, providing equity, being diverse (47:09) and welcoming it. Welcoming. I love that.

And I know we are being tight with our time, but Rachel, (47:16) please also weigh in this. Thank you so much, Brenda. But Rachel, if you could weigh in and (47:20) talk about when you talk to us about quiet work, I just love that term.

Yeah. You know, it’s, (47:26) it is not the fanfare of posting on the company’s LinkedIn page about your support for DEI. It is (47:33) not, you know, it is not the loud work we saw immediately following the death of George Floyd.

(47:40) That didn’t make change for the people who really needed it inside of your company. (47:43) The equity work is really the change that people need. And that is the auditing of your processes.

(47:49) So I know HR people are very attached to the things that they’ve built in terms of all of (47:54) the policies and things that support human beings. Like it’s working. I guarantee you, (47:59) it’s not working for everyone.

So I would just ask that you take a step back. And if you can’t (48:04) take a step back, hire a third party to take us, to take a look at your policies and your practices (48:09) for you to give you some, some ways that you can improve what that book from good to great. (48:15) We’re trying to get to great.

There you go. There you go. Oh, love it.

Love it. And we have one (48:20) final question that I wanted to put up on the chat. Do you have any advice around navigating (48:24) disagreements about the right way? What, how, who to engage with DEI and orgs where the buy-in is (48:31) there, but there are significant differences in ideas of how the work should happen.

What (48:37) priorities are. Brenda, you’re the first person that came to mind about this because I know the (48:42) dynamic of your organization and I’m telling you all follow every single one of these women on (48:48) LinkedIn. They’re incredible.

And Brenda, you definitely are doing a lot of courageous work (48:51) in that space. A lot of resistance was there. So yeah.

What’s some of the advice that you have? (48:57) I think that you, you have to start and, you know, they say, how do you eat an elephant? (49:02) Right. Small bites. Pieces at a time.

Okay. So you have to stop and focus on, (49:12) you know, you have to prioritize and focus on one thing at a time and work on that. (49:19) Look at policies, start with policies, look at hiring practices, you know, start there first.

(49:27) Okay. Talk about succession planning. Those are areas that you can start and that you can have (49:35) a positive impact.

What about onboarding? You know, we always think about what we’re doing, (49:41) you know, we get, we’re bringing in, we’re recruiting, we’ve got them in. How do we keep (49:45) them? Have we onboarded them correctly? Look at those onboarding, you know, are we communicating (49:52) what we do and how we do what we do? And are we asking them, you know, everyone learns (50:01) differently. Are we, are we asking, how do you learn or what’s your preference? How do you like (50:06) to be, how do you prefer to be communicated? Those are the things that we have to start doing (50:14) and make those priority when we’re looking at where do we go? How do we do this first? (50:19) Little pieces at a time.

Love it. Love it. Just one quick thing.

I just want to say, (50:27) because it also sounded like it was a little bit of a power dynamic between who is, who ultimately (50:31) decides what actions get taken. And what I will say is that while DEI leaders are here to co-create (50:38) solutions on behalf of all employees, it is up to the expert in the work. (50:44) So those of us who have been doing this deep work for what, what’s an expert? 10,000 plus hours? (50:51) Yeah.

Okay. So let’s lean on the experts in this work to understand kind of the ecosystem, (50:59) have done the studying, have read the research in order to make the decisions on kind of the (51:03) go forward. But yes, co-creation in your opinion, in your voice should matter.

(51:08) But I often feel like the tug of war wouldn’t happen in a marketing department. This tug of (51:12) war wouldn’t happen in a sales department because you would lean on that sales leader. (51:18) The same way, I think we should rely on the DEI experts.

(51:23) I love that Rachel. And the only thing I would add to that is, is that, you know, I’m always looking (51:29) at what, what problem can I solve? Right. So if you don’t, if I don’t have somebody who’s a strong, (51:36) you know, leader or even a champion in the C-suite, I mean, you, you really do need that.

But (51:42) when I’m trying to get them to, to lead and say, well, this is the problem I can help solve. Right. (51:48) So it is really about being strategic in that sense.

What problem can we solve? Like what is a, (51:55) I’m working with the organization now, they’re trying to grow throughout the, (51:58) throughout the United States. Well, let’s, are you ready to grow? How are you going to reach (52:03) markets that have a, a heavy, heavy, heavy Latinx population or Hispanic population, (52:09) you know, and, and your, are your folks that are engaging on the ground able to speak Spanish at (52:15) all? Are they, are they fluent in, in, in, in the cultural nuances of that and how to sell? And, (52:21) and so you’re, and so it’s like, well, what problem can I help solve? Right. Once you do that, (52:27) you get a leader’s attention.

I love it. Yeah. Take, take the small bites.

I’m sorry, April. I (52:35) didn’t mean to say that. Yeah.

Small bites. We’re doing the A’s. We’re doing the A’s.

(52:42) Right there. That point right there. Okay.

So it sounds like based on the chat and everything, (52:47) we need to part two, but we just thank you all. Thank you again, everyone in the chat. Thank you (52:51) for your interaction.

If we did not, I try to acknowledge everyone’s comments. I mean, it was (52:56) on fire. This was so great.

I mean, it was so hot that my, my system muted on me. I had to refresh. (53:01) So thank you all continue to do the work.

Please follow all these ladies on LinkedIn. We have a (53:06) phenomenal rest. We have a few more sessions left.

So our next session is there’s two breakouts that (53:11) you can choose from. So please go to the lobby to check that out. Thank you again, Brenda, April, (53:17) Rachel.

I am so honored and I feel like I left the session better than I started. So again, (53:23) thank you all. And thank you for joining EMTRAIN’S People Leader 2024.

Let’s make 2025 the best year (53:29) ever. Yes. Are we going to dance? (53:39) All right.

Well, that was a fantastic session. So I just want to reiterate what Leesa said. We do (53:44) have two breakouts going on and just that start in just a few minutes.

One is from Laraine McKinnon (53:51) and Dr. Leann Pereira about some of the great work that we are doing with EMTRAIN’S Analytics (53:55) and what it can do for your business. Another one is with our fantastic client success manager, (54:00) Rachel Schade. She’ll be discussing how you can make the most of a compliance training rollout and (54:06) how to do it effectively.

Also, I want to point out that we do have a video networking opportunity (54:12) going on right now. It will be available for the next 10, 15 minutes or so. To get to that (54:20) video room, you go to the event homepage, community, discussions, and you can join that (54:26) video call.

It’s a little quiet in there. So if anybody wants to put some names to faces, (54:32) I encourage you to head over there. There’s also a chat that’s available for the entire conference (54:37) that is more permanent than those that are up during the actual talks.

So, yeah, explore the (54:45) room. We’ve got some resources available for download too. So, all right.

Again, thank you (54:52) all for hosting this great talk and enjoy the rest of the show. Bye.