Predicting 2025 Workforce Trends

(0:22) Welcome, welcome everyone. Totally excited. This is our last session of the day and we’re saving (0:29) maybe the best for last.

I think so. Yay. If you use the chat, let us know where you’re (0:35) kind of phoning in from.

But totally excited to have three super, super sharp CHROs. (0:45) I always love this session where we start to think about what trends are we going to be seeing next (0:50) year and the idea is to start thinking now about what we need to do now so that we’re not caught (0:58) flat-footed when it comes to 2025 and these issues are on our desk and our colleagues and (1:04) our executives are asking how we’re going to handle them. So why don’t we have folks introduce (1:10) themselves.

Karen, you’re on the upper left, so why don’t we start with you. Great. Hi everyone, (1:16) I’m Karen Fascenda.

I’m the Chief People Officer at Udemy. I joined about two years ago and I’ve (1:23) grown up in learning and org development, so to get the chance to be the head of HR at a learning (1:29) company seemed like the dream job. I get to talk about learning all day, both on the business end (1:34) and for what we call our Udemates.

But I’ve worked at a bunch of different companies, (1:40) very large like Siemens, eBay, and then smaller startups. So love big company and smaller companies. (1:49) Happy to be with you all today.

Awesome. Thanks, Karen. And Christina? Great.

Hi, my name is Christina (1:56) Hall. I lead the people function at Instacart, the largest online grocery delivery service in North (2:04) America. And I have the pleasure of sort of handling all the traditional HR functions, (2:12) workplace, employee experience, recruiting, and our administrative functions.

So that’s great. (2:19) I’ve been here for four years as of last week, which feels like an amazing accomplishment. (2:30) Great to hear your experience, Karen, and coming into this role from L&D.

(2:36) Previously, I was a compensation leader because I’m an exec comp and employee benefits attorney (2:44) sort of by trade and got into HR that way. So it’s great to be here today. I’m excited to talk (2:51) about current trends.

Awesome. And Trey, want to introduce yourself? Thanks, Janine. Thanks, (2:57) everyone.

So hi, my name is Trey Boynton. I use she, her pronouns, and I am the chief diversity (3:02) and people officer at Chief, the largest network of executive women. Our mission is to maximize (3:08) the impact of those leaders.

And we do that through various ways. But we are a powerful (3:13) network of leaders that come together, learn and grow together. I’ve been at Chief for almost (3:19) two years.

My career is in higher education. And I was at the University of Michigan for almost (3:26) 20 years. And it really comes from a DEI lens.

And so in having the role that I have now, (3:31) I bring that history with me as both kind of this higher education, I call myself a recovering (3:36) academic. And I bring that into the work that I do, but also really guided by diversity, equity, (3:42) inclusion strategy, and how it shapes and how it embeds across the people function and across the (3:48) business. Because as a leadership organization, what I feel is really important for us to do is (3:53) to have a team that reflects and supports that mission, which is deeply, our team members are (3:59) deeply passionate about what we do.

Yeah, thank you, Trey. And I have to say, (4:03) as somebody who’s worked with you for a while, you could tell that you come from higher ed, (4:07) because you are a data walk. It’s okay.

You can say nerd. I claim my nerd proudly. (4:15) All right.

I’m all right with it. People are going to want you in all of their strategy (4:21) conversations, for sure. We need to de-stigmatize nerdism.

Okay, I like that. (4:30) Looks like we’ve got a former colleague, Molly. Hi, Molly.

Good to see you. Okay, (4:37) so let’s get started. We had a great day so far talking about the topics that we’re all (4:44) thinking about, you know, how to be proactive, not reactive, how to use data and insights to (4:52) get ahead of the game, about what’s going to happen to us.

So we’ve just had, you know, (4:58) a nice variety of different sessions with great speakers. And for this session, what I’d love us (5:05) to do is think about the trends that, you know, we see percolating right now. They’re going to (5:11) get bigger and bigger, as we know, and love to give some, as my colleague Lisa says, glimmers.

(5:18) Let’s give some glimmers to, you know, our colleagues out there listening on what they can, (5:24) you know, start to work on now so that they’re ready for next year. And we know that there’s (5:32) a lot in flux. I’m going to put my little, like, nerdy soapbox hat on.

Many people have heard me (5:39) time and time again. I love history. I’m like, or at a historical inflection point.

(5:45) And this really is, feels like the Gilded Age 2.0. You know, society’s changing, technology’s (5:52) changing, our economy’s changing. And for those of us who study history, there’s a lot of turbulence (6:01) that happens at those inflection points, right? You know, think about it. I’m a Californian, so, (6:07) you know, another way to think about it is the, what is it, the tectonic plates are shifting, (6:14) and you get some friction when those plates shift.

And I do think, not to, you know, kind of (6:20) inspire fear and craziness, but I think that’s probably a realistic way to look at what we’re (6:27) about to experience or we have been experiencing. But it’s all doable. So, shake it up.

That’s (6:33) right, Lisa. So, let’s talk about AI first, because AI is here. AI is already really embedded (6:41) in most of the tools we use.

It’s starting to change kind of our workflows. And it’ll soon, (6:50) if not, if it hasn’t already changed how we think about our staffing strategies, our workforce (6:57) strategies. I know one of my colleagues, you know, is just regularly saying, well, it all depends on, (7:04) like, the query you use for chat GBT, right? So, does querying chat GBT become a skill we’re (7:10) looking for in our job descriptions, right? So, things like that.

And how is it going to impact, (7:17) you know, how we manage and optimize our workforce? And Trey, I’ll start with you. (7:22) So, I think, as we think about this in HR, and as we talk about trends in 2025, I think you can’t (7:31) help but be all over it. If you are not thinking about it, your team is already thinking about it.

(7:37) Your people in your immediate circles are thinking about it. And therefore, we should be thinking (7:42) about it. We should absolutely be at the table.

I think we constantly sit at the intersection of (7:47) strategy and execution because we need the bodies of work that help the people do the work. (7:54) And if AI is a tool to do the work, we got to be in that conversation, y’all. (7:59) So, it’s kind of, it’s almost inevitable that we would be in that conversation.

And we think (8:04) about it in multiple ways. And I start with this piece of what is the most highest and best use (8:10) of the talent that we have? When I think about the work that I do, part of it is to help them (8:15) be the smartest that they can on the work that’s the most complex. But the thing about AI is that (8:20) takes all of the mundane, and you can start to really take that off their plates, so people can (8:25) start to dream.

People can think creatively, innovatively. And they can only do that when they (8:30) have the capacity to do that, right? Last time I checked, none of us have a whole bunch of spare (8:34) time just sitting there twiddling our thumb. So, if we can actually take some of this away (8:39) from the team, the things that are routinized, and let their brains actually play at work, (8:45) I think there’s some real beauty there.

And it has to align with the business strategy. If it’s (8:50) not part of your product, or your offering, or whatever you are serving forward, then it should (8:55) be part of your human capital strategy. And I think the thing that we do with this is we’ve got to play (9:01) a role in upskilling and reskilling the employees to help them transition to this.

For folks that (9:07) don’t know, for folks that are already doing it, how do we bring that together in a thoughtful (9:11) and intentional way, so that we can actually see the return on the investment, so that we can (9:16) actually see the transformation that’s happening with the workforce? I think that we also have to (9:20) make sure it doesn’t perpetuate bias. The great thing about some of these tools is that it is (9:25) accessible to everyone, if you know how to use it, right? It’s got these caveats. So, what we have (9:31) to do is we have to be at the table to ensure that we’re shaping policy, that we’re skill building in (9:35) a way that is accessible to everyone, and that we are allowing this to do what it has the promise (9:41) to do, which is to really enhance productivity and innovation across diverse teams.

And then I (9:46) think that last piece, Janine, that you shouted out, which is, how do we start thinking about (9:50) what does this mean for who joins our workforce? How do we help people understand that this is how (9:55) we operate? Where do we integrate AI? How are we asking about this in our hiring processes? (10:00) And also, how are we recognizing people who are doing it well for folks that are already on the (10:05) team? I think there’s just so many places that we can play here. And I think if we can take that (10:10) approach of being positive and playful and thoughtful about it, and strategic, then I think (10:15) there’s some real opportunity for HR to be a critical component of the integration of AI (10:22) into your business. So, Trey, I’m going to put on a make-believe CFO hat.

Okay. And play devil’s (10:29) advocate. I’m ready.

Okay. So, Trey, this sounds lovely. Let me ask you, can I reduce head count? (10:37) Can we reduce head count? So, the way that I would think about it is, (10:42) how any time we get a solution, so, there’s technology everywhere.

Let’s not pretend like (10:48) this is new. Sometimes when we get new stuff, we go, oh, look, it’s something we’ve never seen before. (10:54) And there are elements of newness there.

But let’s not get it twisted, y’all. Any time we think about (10:59) a new technology, new solution that’s going to increase productivity, we have to actually shape (11:03) the strategy before we think about the adoption. And why are we adopting it? If you’re only coming (11:11) in at the lens of reducing, that could be one of the outputs.

And I think there’s this bit of (11:15) myth-busting that it’s like AI is going to take jobs. AI is going to enhance people’s jobs, (11:21) and it might allow us to do more. It might have us capacity.

I think there’s so many things that (11:26) it can do. If there is something that is routine, there is something that an Excel spreadsheet can (11:31) routinize today that someone is pressing a button on. So, let’s not pretend like this is new (11:36) territory that we’ve never seen before.

This ain’t Star Trek, y’all. Part of what’s really important (11:40) is to say, let’s be thoughtful and intentional. So, I would say to that CFO, where do we need and (11:46) where do we need to see productivity? Where do we need to see increases in output? Where do we need (11:51) to see innovation? Because if we can offset, like I said, by having those folks not focused on the (11:57) things that are so automated or routine or just repetitive, or even just in terms of how to source (12:03) ideas, it is like having an advisor, a coach, a researcher, a synthesizer in your back pocket.

(12:12) And if we can think about where we can best utilize that, we will see actually, if we can (12:17) actually see it grow, how about I just make you more money? Would that be good? And then you don’t (12:21) have to take people. You don’t have to talk about if this is going to take jobs. I like that.

All (12:24) right. Cool. Karen, want to double tap on that or any other comments? (12:31) Yeah, I love what Trey said, especially around the skills.

Every time a new technology or a new (12:38) something is rolled out, I think it requires all of us to use our skills a little bit differently. (12:44) And I had just read something that when the telephone was rolled out, people were afraid (12:49) of the telephone. And now today, it’s like, how could people have been afraid of the telephone? (12:54) You know, people look back 10 years from now, people were afraid of AI.

It’s a companion to us. (13:02) So I think as we look at how are we building learning paths and careers for people internally, (13:08) how do we do that with AI in partnership with AI? It’s something that we’re looking at right now as (13:15) we’re rolling out our products. Can we really create tailored recommendations for people to (13:20) optimize their learning, really building their skills and helping them learn in partnership (13:27) with AI? The second thing that my team and I have been working on is really looking at workforce (13:32) planning.

So you asked about the CFO question, kind of as we’re looking at the jobs of the future (13:38) and the skills that are needed in the future, what role does AI play in that to clean up some (13:44) of the administrative work that we’re all doing and let our talent focus on the exciting, (13:49) innovative work? And that’s how we’re thinking about leveraging AI in our workforce planning. (13:55) And then the last thing I would say is that like, really thinking about like, (13:59) how do we use it for like more mundane tasks, but throughout our entire talent strategy? (14:05) So we’re looking right now, like, how do we do this in hiring? Can it do some of the main (14:10) mundane tasks that our recruiters are tasked with? We’re looking at it around total rewards. Can we (14:15) look at like analyzing data, seeing where we have pay equity opportunities, and really using AI (14:21) throughout the entire people strategy to help automate some of those tasks and give us better (14:27) insights and better data.

So that’s, that’s how we’re thinking about it. I’m really excited about (14:32) the career pathing piece, because everywhere I worked, one of the lowest scoring items on (14:38) employee engagement surveys is people don’t really know the skills they need to get promoted. People (14:44) don’t know the skills they need to like make cross-functional moves in their organization.

(14:49) And I think if we can really leverage AI to create those career paths, (14:53) I think that really helps automate that experience for employees. (14:57) Okay, hold that thought right there, because we’re going to double tap on that in a minute. (15:01) And Christina, any other thoughts on how AI is going to impact the work of the HR? (15:08) No, I think Trey and Karen have said it really well.

I mean, I think it’s important like as (15:14) a people leader, to sort of make sure that you’re talking about it with your employee base in a way (15:21) that it allows for more co-creation, allows for more creativity. I mean, I think if you just think (15:29) about AI as sort of getting rid of mundane tasks, then yes, then it isn’t so exciting. And it is a (15:37) more like been there, done that.

I think the more you can sort of like let people like be creative (15:45) and thinking about it really unlocked productivity in that way that Trey is referencing, like where, (15:52) hey, it really could change how much money we’re making and how we’re doing it. I think that makes (15:57) it a lot more like something that would be fun to think about how I would integrate it into my work (16:04) day as opposed to something like, oh, this is going to take my job. And I think a big part of (16:10) this is shifting that mindset.

Yeah. No, that makes sense. It was funny.

I think, Karen, I think (16:17) as you were talking about the telephone, what was going through my head was when I was a law student, (16:24) what did we, God, Christina, I don’t even remember what it was. You used to have to (16:28) actually look at books. I mean, you know, those things are like hard and thick.

(16:34) I forgot the term. I forgot the term for it. But to see if law is still good law, (16:41) you literally go through like 10 different books and check and check.

And it was all manual. (16:48) And that just like, Karen, to your point, like that just seems like that blows my mind. Like, (16:52) like, did we really do that? Of course, you just Google it.

I mean, come on, you know, (16:57) and I think AI will become that way, too. I mean, I’ve definitely seen the tools. We probably won’t (17:02) need real people, as far as you know, to be leading a podcast or a discussion like this.

Like, (17:09) we’ll all just program our avatars to have this dialogue. All right. Well, that’s what I’m worried (17:17) about.

But let’s move on. So let’s think about, you know, we see everywhere. And I think we’re (17:24) all talking about a skills first economy.

Karen, you were just talking about that, (17:29) um, you know, as opposed to like these baked roles, right? And it’s like, that’s, you know, (17:36) a little bit more kind of agile. And now, like, the crux of it is really the skills. What skills (17:41) do we need? And, you know, Karen, why don’t you start us off? And as we think about, you know, (17:50) what opportunities does that present? What does that present for communities that may have been (17:56) historically underrepresented in certain, you know, companies, as we start talking about skills (18:02) and not necessarily kind of, you know, degrees, for example, and other things? (18:09) You know, and what does that maybe promise also for internal mobility? You were saying, (18:15) you know, people, Karen, in your past experiences are frustrated without, (18:20) from not seeing visibility and what they need to do, what skills they need to acquire (18:23) to get to that next role.

Great. I, one of the things that we did at Udemy this year was we took (18:30) all of requirements for degrees off most all of our jobs. And it wasn’t easy at first, (18:37) we had leaders talking about how important that degree was to the position.

And so we changed the (18:43) conversation to be what skills do you need that degree represents? And the need for that degree, (18:50) can we replace that with asking skills based questions? And what we found it gives broader (18:56) access to people who maybe don’t have access to education, but have had great work experience and (19:02) have had opportunities to build their skills. Taking that degree off, it really levels the (19:08) playing field for everyone to be eligible for our roles based on experience and skills. (19:14) So feel, feel really good about doing that.

Although it did take a little bit of (19:20) curiosity and questioning to have people start thinking about what skills they needed (19:26) from those degrees. But we’re also thinking about, you know, having (19:33) people really be able to integrate like all the skills into our interview questions, (19:39) translating those into promotion decisions that has really helped us be very focused on like (19:45) giving feedback and identifying like areas where people have to close the gaps with skills. (19:51) So those are a couple of areas like where we’ve really leaned in, like taking the (19:55) degrees off, looking at skills as we’re assigning people for projects, that’s helped us tremendously.

(20:02) Awesome. Trey, thoughts on this? I mean, I think what it does, it’s accessible. (20:10) It makes things accessible because part of what we know is the ability to go to college is a (20:14) privilege.

And when we think about the hierarchy of how we consider a good education, what I would (20:19) offer is that someone who has self-taught, built the skills, learned on the job, might have a (20:26) different set of things they bring to the table than someone who received a college education (20:31) that is in a traditional setting. And I think what it does is it is exactly as Karen described. (20:36) It just has to open up our aperture, open up the ability to think outside of what is traditional (20:41) and normal, because what is traditional and normal is usually exclusive.

Sorry, bad news. (20:47) When we go with the way that things used to be, that means everyone wasn’t always invited, so (20:52) we’re going to most likely exclude folks. What it does is it just kicks the doors open.

(20:58) And it allows us to think about it in a way that feels less subjective, because your degree (21:03) says something about you. And when we go from a skills-based perspective, you can just talk (21:09) about what you did. It’s evidence-based.

It’s what we use as a best practice in interviewing. (21:13) We want to know what people have already done, because that’s a likely predictor of behavior. (21:18) And so when we move to a skills-based kind of framework and thinking about it, what happens (21:23) also is it just opens up the opportunity, like I said, and allows people to do that.

(21:30) When you do that internally, what it allows people to do is move throughout the organization (21:34) and visit other parts of the organization, because you’re using skills versus you have to be this (21:40) person that always did this. If you have this experience, you can only do this one thing in (21:45) this one function versus, hey, if you’re a good problem solver, we need that throughout the (21:50) business, y’all. I got a lot of problems over here.

Can you go over here and use those (21:55) superpowers? And so I think it just allows us to think about when we have phenomenal talent, (22:01) and sometimes we can actually put people and pin people in a corner, like dirty dancing. Don’t put (22:07) baby in a corner. Don’t put your child in a corner by thinking that they can only do one thing.

(22:12) You get to skills-based, and as they develop new skills, because the business is constantly (22:16) changing. What we’re doing and navigating right now versus three years ago is, well, I got new (22:21) skills that I didn’t ask for, nor did I want, but guess what I have now? These skills. And so I think (22:27) it’s really important to think, as people expand, we should expand.

We are expanding as they expand, (22:34) and when we meet them there, that’s when the mutual benefit can occur. (22:38) No, I love that. Let me just double tap on that a little bit because not only is the traditional (22:44) education exclusive, as a first-generation college kid myself, and I see my two very privileged (22:51) young boys, I mean, I have to zip it, you know, to not be so like, oh, my goodness, (22:58) you have no idea how privileged you are because that often doesn’t help very much, you know, but, (23:03) you know, it is, it’s like, wow, okay.

But put that aside for one second, right? (23:12) The jobs and what’s needed in the jobs are changing so quickly. You know, I was just (23:18) thinking through, you know, John, who is our emcee today, you know, what you need in marketing (23:26) today is completely different than what you needed even two years ago. So, Emtrain, you know, just (23:33) sponsored a boot camp of a bunch of peers because they need new skills, because skills are, you know, (23:39) developing like that.

And so, and I would say, even following on to that, in addition to (23:45) needing new skills, because employees have so many ways they can be learning different skills, (23:53) whether it is through, you know, technology or all these great learning platforms that are out there, (24:00) you know, there is a real desire from employees to have mobility. So, like, as a retentive tool, (24:09) from my perspective as a chief people officer, I want to really think about how I’m creating (24:14) opportunities for mobility. Obviously, looking at skills is a huge part of that.

But also, (24:21) I want to try and create programmatic solutions that give people agency to do something new and (24:27) different. We do something that we piloted in one of our product leaders piloted for all of his (24:35) teams called a farmer’s market, where essentially we let people get more transparency into what all (24:42) the different teams were doing. And they got a chance to decide and, you know, seek, you know, (24:50) a new role on a different team, as a way of exercising agency, and having the ability to (24:56) grow their career a little bit out of the framework they were in.

We’re keeping great talent that we (25:01) know has the skills that we want. And they’re getting a chance to do something different. (25:07) It’s a little bit outside the box, but then everyone goes away with like, hey, I’m getting (25:13) to have an expanding growth experience.

Which is great. I mean, we’re just keeping people (25:20) connected, learning, growing, and then they’re going to be appreciative, you know, the organization (25:25) that’s helping, you know, enable that. I love it.

The through line is so much better for them, (25:32) because they’re getting that, and yet we get someone who’s like newly invigorated about an (25:37) experience they’ve chosen. Yeah, that’s great. So, let me stay with you for a little bit here, (25:44) Christina, because you and I the other week were talking about the balance of power between (25:48) employers and employees.

Yeah. And how, you know, in the last couple years, that pendulum has, (25:57) you know, swung pretty abruptly, right? So, we were in this war for talent, for employees, (26:05) you know, in the first half of 2022, then we had market correction, and all of a sudden, it was, (26:12) you know, kind of contraction, contraction, contraction. And so, there’s always that (26:19) shifting balance, right? And so, you know, as we go forward, and let me just add, I said this, (26:26) you know, at the beginning of today, in a couple of sessions, today, we published Emtrain’s culture (26:32) report for the year.

So, it takes from September of 2023 to September 2024, 20 million employee (26:40) responses about, you know, the behaviors and skills of people on their teams. And the takeaway for this (26:49) particular topic is a 5% drop in people’s perceptions of the integrity, personal integrity, (26:57) and accountability of their leaders, right? And I think that that’s a direct kind of outgrowth (27:03) of like this, you know, kind of very strong market correction, and the pendulum swinging (27:10) very abruptly back to the employer having an imbalance of power, if you will. Your thoughts (27:16) on that, Christina? Well, I think that it’s just really important that companies, and especially (27:27) HR leaders, think about how they are communicating with their employees in a way that builds trust.

(27:36) And I think that without that, you know, you are just going to get yourself into a place (27:43) that there is cynicism. And I think that is altogether wrong. Like, one of the values (27:52) that we talk a lot about at Instacart is put it all on the table.

And that means that we’re up front (27:57) with employees about our expectations, around guardrails, around what we expect them to do. (28:05) And then when you have that clarity, whether it’s about what the company’s trying to do, (28:12) the goals you set out for an individual, the performance you expect, but once you’re very clear (28:18) about that, then that trust allows for sort of a culture that’s collaborative, that people are, (28:26) you know, working hard to go far together. And that helps cut back on sort of this (28:34) us versus them dichotomy that I think is really problematic.

You know, what you want to have is (28:43) a spirit of sort of pragmatic optimism, where people are being active and thinking about (28:50) how they can solve for their benefit and the company’s benefit. And that really does have (28:57) to be something I think you have to work to imbue in leadership comms, in how you treat employees, (29:06) and in, you know, in employees themselves. And, you know, there’s a lot of different ways.

I think (29:12) one is just making sure that leaders are, you know, doing what they say they’re going to do. (29:20) They’re being clear about what they expect, and then they’re trusting on employees to, (29:28) you know, to achieve those goals. And the more you sort of like combine these things, (29:35) I think the more you get to a place where everyone’s on the same page.

You know, (29:40) everyone’s playing for the front of the jersey and helping a company win. (29:46) Thank you, Christina. That makes sense.

And Karen, let me lean on you for a second. (29:52) So, how should HR leaders help support and guide their colleagues who might be having a (30:02) instant reaction of like, all right, everyone return to the office right now. (30:08) We’re not going to do this.

We’re not going to do that. You know, capital is scarce, (30:12) and it’s a scarcity mindset. And, you know, and they know that at least for the month, (30:19) don’t know how long this is going to last.

You know, employees by and large will deal with it (30:24) because of the environment we’re in. But how should HR leaders think about that? (30:31) Christina touched on that. It’s really important.

It’s like going back to your core values. (30:37) And so one of our core values is about being like earnestly authentic. And so the core values about (30:44) like, how do you ask, start with the mindset of curiosity, and like really asking good questions, (30:51) like, why are we doing this? Why and getting leaders engaged around that why as well.

(30:56) And so we’ve done a lot to make sure that like, we’re building the skills of our leaders (31:02) to like really model our values, and to ask really good questions, because once they understand like (31:08) the why behind things are happening, that’s such a good point. That’s one. I mean, that’s so good.

(31:14) Yeah, I think once your leaders are on board, and they understand why they can really help us (31:19) cascade those key messages and like be champions for the company as well. But we’ve started a (31:25) group called group leadership. So it’s really our leaders and their direct reports.

And we (31:30) use that team as a sounding board to find out like, hey, we’re thinking about rolling out this idea. (31:36) Does this feel right for our culture? Like, what will the reaction be from our employees? And (31:41) we actually have a just a course on some of our decisions using that broader group to think about (31:47) how does this reflect our culture, our core values, and our company. And then the second (31:52) thing that we have a really strong we call it Betty.

At first when I first heard him like, (31:57) what’s Betty? Like, who is Betty? But Betty is actually our diversity initiatives. It’s belonging, (32:02) equity, diversity and inclusion. And we have eight really strong ERGs who have amazing leaders.

(32:11) We’ve been investing in their skills. We had our Betty Summit a few weeks ago. (32:15) And our CEO meets with them very often to get feedback around where the team needs support, (32:23) how can we overcome barriers? And our second core value is always learning.

(32:28) That’s surprising. We are a learning company. So we’re always learning.

And so we can ask questions (32:33) in a spirit of like, hey, I’m always learning, like, help me understand more about that or (32:39) reflecting in our work about like what we’ve learned, maybe from a decision that didn’t go as (32:44) well. And how do we like learn from that and make different choices next time? (32:48) Oh, I love that, Karen. Trey, stop barking.

Or was that you? (32:55) No, I don’t think that was my doodles. You could hear that. (33:00) That’s okay.

I thought for some reason I was thinking it was doodles are usually so (33:04) different. But anyways, okay. So, Trey, let me ask you.

In fact, Karen, thank you. I was thinking, (33:12) I don’t know how many organizations lean and partner on their ERGs to cascade these (33:20) decisions, these comms out. I love that idea.

As well as getting the feedback. Because I think (33:25) what happens, and I’ll turn to you in a second, Trey, but I think what happens is, (33:30) you know, we were talking before we streamed on the main stage here, like, think about it as like (33:35) driving a car. And so the leaders are like at the steering wheel, and they’re driving, (33:41) and everyone else is in the back of the car, kind of getting whiplash back and forth.

It’s like, (33:46) oh, I didn’t realize we were driving through a canyon. Right? And so, you know, how can we (33:51) stabilize that and give more advanced notice to our passengers that are in the car with us of like, (33:58) hold on, we’re going down a hill right now. And I think the ERGs are a big component of that.

(34:04) Trey, your thoughts? Yeah. I mean, however you can listen, (34:08) you should be listening. And how do you listen intelligently and intentionally? So ERGs are a (34:16) system and infrastructure that helps you be successful in understanding specifically within (34:21) communities, within groups, what the sentiment is, what the feeling is.

And to Karen’s point, (34:27) it’s really critical in helping inform business decisions, because they have a lens on what we’re (34:31) doing and represent a potential client, customer, member, in our case, our collectives, we call (34:39) them the chief collectives, are members of the same intersectional identity groups as our members. (34:44) So when we’re talking about what’s top of mind, what are they navigating, it’s something that (34:47) our members are navigating. And so I think it’s just so automatic to think about them as a (34:52) critical business input, because that’s actually helpful.

You reduce the churn, you reduce the (34:57) missteps. If some of our more public moments of poor marketing had used their ERGs, we probably (35:05) wouldn’t have seen the backlash I would offer. So we know what happens when you don’t do it, (35:10) which is why you should do it.

And I think as HR professionals, we have to hold the whole. (35:16) We have to hold the employee experience and have different ways in which we’re gathering (35:20) information, bring that data forward and say to our colleagues and our CEOs, here’s what people (35:26) are feeling and thinking. This is what we need to address and here’s why.

Similarly, when we are (35:32) the bridge between the leadership team or the way the business is going and business strategy, (35:38) this is how we should translate it. Here’s why we’ve made these decisions. And part of that is (35:42) because when you can come and actually point in the same direction, that is when you reduce the (35:48) swirl and the churn that can be so counterproductive to what we’re trying to accomplish, which are the (35:54) outcomes, the goals and the KPIs that are driving the business.

And I think there is this piece too (35:59) around, I think it’s so critical to name the dynamics. I think, and I am the biggest transponent (36:07) of transparency. Here’s why we’re having this conversation and it feels hard.

Y’all, we’re (36:12) struggling with this. And I will tell you when you can name the dynamics of what’s happening for (36:17) folks, it immediately causes their shoulders to go down. It immediately allows people to go, (36:22) oh, they’re not, oh, they actually kind of know what’s going on.

And when you can actually be (36:27) truthful and authentic, and I think this is not slowly in DEI conversations, it’s in any (36:32) conversation. When you can say that you’re struggling with a decision, it makes us, we’re (36:38) all human. We’re all trying to figure it out the best we can.

And that’s what we have in common, (36:42) y’all. We’re all trying to do our best. We’re all trying to figure it out.

And there’s no magical (36:47) kind of title that says, oh, they must know more. I am struggling with the same kind of conflicts and (36:53) all these inputs and trying to pick the next best choice for us as an organization, for us as a team. (37:00) And I think the more you can be authentic in that, the more you can be genuine in that, (37:04) I think your trust bucket gets filled.

Because here’s what will happen. The more you build (37:08) relationships and communication and engagements and being present and being yourself. I always (37:14) tell my team, I only know how to be me because I don’t have the memory capacity to be someone else (37:18) because I’m not going to remember what I was going to try to do yesterday.

So if I can just be me (37:22) today, the most critical input to trust is consistency, repetition, and predictability. (37:31) It’s like the most unsexiest of leadership traits, if you think about it, in terms of like, (37:36) I want people to be all these things. If people have to come in and not ask the question, (37:41) what’s she like today? Is she in a good mood? That’s the kind of stuff that we have to think (37:46) about.

And so the more we can fill in people’s buckets with our teams and with our culture and (37:53) fill in the cultural buckets of our team members and as a group, the more that when we do make a (37:58) misstep, because it’s going to happen. I’m going to mess up next week. I don’t know when, but it’s coming.

(38:04) The more trust I have in my bucket, the more inclined the team is to be like, oh my gosh, you’re fine. (38:09) That’s what we want to actually do. And I think it’s as HR, we create the mechanisms for us to (38:15) know how to put the investments in the bucket, put the money in our relationship bank (38:19) with our team, and then also be ready to know how to course correct when we make a withdrawal, whether (38:25) it’s a misstep, a decision that didn’t go well.

It’s inevitably going to happen. Let’s just weather (38:29) that together. Excellent.

No, thank you. And just to double tap on that last comment, Trey, I think (38:38) broadly speaking, leaders and their HR leaders are going to have to think about how to course (38:44) correct for next year, because that’s what we saw in our culture report, right? So we’re starting (38:49) at a trust deficit going on next year. Let me stay with you, Trey, for a minute here.

(38:57) So when you and I chatted last week, and I love this, you’re like, hey, can we just get to the (39:02) point where every CHRO just has the equation to talk to the CFO and just show them the money that (39:10) we’re delivering, right? Like what’s the CAC, what’s the LTV? So we use marketing speak, right? (39:19) And I know we’ve been as a profession thinking about that for a long time. I think we are (39:27) closer and closer to materializing that. But if you think about, okay, 70% of the operating (39:36) budget is your people, is your workforce, you know, let’s kind of give folks something to think (39:42) about and maybe plant some seeds on conversations they can have with their finance teams on how they (39:50) can actually create really an equation for letting the finance folks think about the contributions (39:57) of the HR organization.

One of the best, and I think I like this question from a, you’ve asked (40:04) about like, I’m going to play the role of CFO. And what I love, and what I think is really important, (40:09) and I think we have the opportunity to do, and it’s one of the best pieces of coaching that I (40:13) ever got. And I was in conflict, and I was with a business coach.

And one of the things that I was (40:17) just coming in hot, and I was, I had all these opinions, and I was just ready to know what I knew. (40:23) One of the things that I, that I got advised to do was, how do you help them win? (40:27) And rather than have this kind of, you know, is it finance or is it human resources? (40:33) Part of what we can do is say, how do we both win? How do I help the CFO win? And part of that is (40:38) exactly to the point of how do I showcase the value that I’m bringing to the organization (40:43) that is ultimately helping their job? And part of that is thinking about, and how do I do it in (40:49) language that each function can understand the value that we bring as HR? Do I use some of the (40:55) same tactics as marketing to think about segmenting my employee comms? The things that I tell for, (41:02) the things that I talk about to the first joined member who’s been here for decades, or years, (41:07) to the person who joined yesterday. They’re going to need different messages.

That’s marketing. (41:11) Marketing’s been segmenting forever to understand what our customers need to hear. Why aren’t we (41:15) doing that? I think there’s a way to think then through, how are they accessing our information? (41:20) Who’s clicking? Where do they need to go? That’s on our product team.

They’re looking at how (41:24) they’re using the product. How are they using the pieces, the things that we’re offering, (41:29) of all of our menu of items that we do in HR? What are they accessing? What are they not? (41:33) That’s a data point. And what we can say is that if we’re constantly, if I can go to my CFO and (41:38) I’m taking this off the table, we’re getting out of this contract early because people just (41:42) aren’t using it.

They love that. And I’m going to say, hey, if I’m proactive about saying I’ve (41:48) got a solution that actually is going to be cheaper, but more effective, and it’s going to (41:52) actually, one of the things that we did this year was really around streamlining the benefits (41:57) process by using a cost-neutral, cost-beneficial solution that we found that was essentially (42:02) helping the employee navigate leave, which is sometimes scary, daunting, all of these things. (42:08) And we partnered with an external vendor to do that, that helped the employee.

So on the (42:12) experience side, the employees were happier, win. And then on the finance side, what we were doing (42:17) is we weren’t leaving money on the table anymore. And we did it in a, it paid for itself and it was (42:21) cost-neutral.

And this CFO is now, you know, we hang out, we’re homies. I have done something (42:29) that was them thinking about their work in a way that helped them win. And then what starts to (42:33) happen is they see the value.

They see the value. And when we can also use updated, like long-term (42:39) value, the more we have retention, I think retention’s always been a measurement of HR. (42:43) But can I start to understand the exponential increase of when people are in seat and the (42:49) institutional knowledge that someone has been here forever and knows what they’re doing, (42:54) and is then start to train the entire team.

Can I start to calculate that? So can I look at my (42:59) revenue teams who understand long-term value LTV to cost of acquisition. If I can lower the cost of (43:06) what it takes to recruit, when I ask you to pay for solutions and going to partnerships and doing (43:11) those things, what I can say is I’m actually keeping our costs low because I’m looking at (43:17) our tenure and our retention numbers. And I’m telling you that if it costs this much money, (43:21) I’m not replacing them.

I’m saving us money there, but also I am reducing the cost of (43:27) acquisition as well. And I think if we can use across the business, different functions ability (43:32) to kind of use their language to help explain why we bring value. I think it’s always an outreach (43:38) and a bridge builder because it’s language.

When I can speak someone else’s language, (43:44) it allows them to know that I’m trying and I’m in their work and I care about their work in a way (43:49) that’s mutual. Yeah. No, thank you.

Just for so long, you’ve been talking in terms of anecdotes (43:57) and stories, and I just want to encourage everyone to think about it from a different perspective, (44:02) different lens. Christina, your thoughts on this? No, I think Trey’s nailed it. And Janine, (44:09) if you put on your CFO hat, I mean, you’re loving this story.

Well, okay. So let me put my CFO hat (44:15) on for a second, and then I’ll turn to you in a second, Karen. So, you know, here’s a suggestion (44:21) I might make, and Trey, I totally agree with everything you said, but for the sake of just (44:27) simplicity, maybe I’ll put my CFO plus my lawyer, my litigator hat on.

Okay. So 70% of the operating (44:35) budget goes to the workforce, right? And the CFO is like, yeah, okay. All right.

Well, so take 10% (44:41) of that off the top automatically. And the CFO will be like, what? What? Well, okay. Turnover, (44:48) conflict, you know, they’re gossiping, they’re bummed at their leaders, they’re bummed at this (44:55) riff, blah, blah, blah, blah.

10%. How much does that money worth, right? What’s that about? (44:59) Okay. So I could take that money and cut it in half.

And how do I do that? Well, me and my team (45:04) do that by institutionalizing really good processes, recruitment processes. We’re cutting (45:12) down on that cost, as you said, Trey. We’re up leveling the leaders.

Thank you. You’re welcome. (45:17) Thank you very much.

And so the leaders are not losing people. We’re not losing trust. (45:23) In a prior session today, we talked about the cost of employee relations.

(45:26) So take a quarter of a percent of your workforce. So whatever your head count is, (45:31) multiply it by .025. That’s the number of employee relations claims you will experience every single (45:38) year. Multiply that by $25,000 claim, either internal or external.

That money is somewhere (45:45) on the P&L. It’s probably not visible, but it’s somewhere. You can reduce that with good practices.

(45:52) Right? So start thinking about ways you take, you know, again, it’s probably from that 70% (45:58) off the top, you’re losing 10% in friction and lack of productivity and try to decrease that. (46:05) That’d be my CFO slash litigator perspective. Karen, any comments on that? (46:10) I luckily have the best CFO.

She invests in all of our people stuff. She (46:15) loves to do the people initiative. Sometimes I think she’s the chief people officer.

(46:20) But one of the things we’ve talked a lot about internally is the people stuff is (46:25) not an HR opportunity. It’s a business opportunity. And if we don’t have the right (46:30) skills to compete, then we won’t be in business.

Right? And so like we’ve really looked at like, (46:37) how do we invest in skills? You can measure them. They’re observable and you get better productivity (46:44) when someone’s skills are being built. People are much more engaged when they feel like they’re (46:49) being invested in and being developed.

And those are things we can measure so they can play (46:54) engagement surveys. And every survey I read, employee engagement impacts productivity, (47:03) productivity, profitability. So really like investing in our employees is like a business (47:08) opportunity.

It’s not an HR opportunity. It’s really, we have to do this for the business. (47:13) And the data shows by doing that, like it really helps productivity and profitability.

And so those (47:19) are the kinds of conversations I’ve been trying to like reframe and think about like, what does (47:23) our business need from our people? And how do we really invest in that? Awesome. So looks like we (47:32) talked about four little nuggets here to keep on the radar for next year. You know, how we’re going (47:39) to think about and leverage AI, a skills first perspective, the balance of power between the (47:46) employer, employee, and really, I think what we’re saying here is a little bit more of a (47:50) a centrist balanced approach, and how to think about, you know, the role that HR has in optimizing (47:59) the workforce spend and getting a little attribution for it, frankly.

So Trey, Karen, (48:06) Christina, thank you so much for joining us. While we’re here, don’t leave right yet, (48:13) I’m going to thank everyone. We’ll close this out because we’re the last session of the day here.

(48:18) So for everyone, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been, you know, a series of (48:26) one great talk after another, some great conversations, all on ethics, respect, inclusion, (48:34) and belonging, which we all know form the foundation of a really good workplace culture. (48:40) So thank you so much, and thank you to the three of you, and thank you to everyone else (48:44) for joining us.

Have a good day. Yes. Bye-bye.